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STARGATE OPERATIONS: • View topic - From a Ranger's Point of View
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From a Ranger's Point of View

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~jsanderson~

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Post Fri Dec 14, 2007 10:11 am

From a Ranger's Point of View

Something interesting to see, from the other side's point of view.


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Rasputin

Post Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:59 am

Re: From a Ranger's Point of View

Optomistic or not, it gives you a little perspective. I don't have the honor or the priviledge of having served, but I at least respect those who did. Politics aside, our troops should not have to endure hatred for doing their jobs.
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Lt.Ackerson

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Post Wed Feb 06, 2008 1:32 am

Re: From a Ranger's Point of View

Hooyeah, Richard. Almost every time I see a service member I thank them for being one of America's true SUPER HEROS.
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Rhyus

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Post Wed Feb 20, 2008 6:22 pm

Re: From a Ranger's Point of View

I served in the Army Reserves for 9 years. I missed both Desert Storms. They didn't call me up for 9/11. I even called and asked if they needed me and they told me that they would call me if they needed me. When I hear news organizations, senators, representatives, citizens and even relatives of soldiers who died over there tear about the way things are going over there, and are against the war, I just want to go up to them and ask them the one line from "The Last Boyscout"....'Head or gut'. They are not Americans. They are anti-Americans. There is this woman out in California I think that has started this campaign against the war because her son was killed in Iraq. They were going to stage a protest during the Rose Bowl parade. She says that she is against the war, but is for the soldiers. You cannot be both. You are either for the war and the soldiers or you are against the war and the soldiers, because it is the soldiers that are fighting that war, doing their job and allowing us to keep our freedoms. She is doing a great dishonor to her son by opposing anything that her son was involved in if she cared about him that much. It is starting to be the Vietnam war all over again stateside. You may not like the war, but do not also state that you are for our soldiers in the same paragraph. Just show your support for the soldiers and no hatred, because they are the ones that are dealing with a much harder life than we are back home.
Master Sergeant Ryan Taner
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Auggie

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Post Wed Feb 20, 2008 9:42 pm

Re: From a Ranger's Point of View

I don't think we should get into the politics of this war, especially on these forums. There are too many views and the material is too sensitive to be discussing it within a fan club setting...
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Rhyus

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Post Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:11 pm

Re: From a Ranger's Point of View

I'm not really talking about the politics of the war. I'm mainly talking about the crying and whining of a lot of the American public about being against the war, but they will support the troops. If you are going to support the troops, then support the war, because they are the ones fighting the war.
Master Sergeant Ryan Taner
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Hawk

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Post Thu Feb 21, 2008 8:18 am

Re: From a Ranger's Point of View

:evil: OK, now for my two cents on the subject at hand. I served my country as a soldier in the United States Army. I will always support what the soldiers are doing to keep us free and to protect our way of life. However Rhyus this is where I am going to start sounding off. The whole idea of going over to Iraq in the first place was to look for WMD's, then to remove Hussain from power. We never did find any WMD's and we were successfull in removing Hussain from power. At that point Bush said himself that we had succeded and it was over. Why then are we still over there, because then he decided to start a war to end something that will never end which is terrorism. All so that he could feel important in his daddy's eyes. Like I said earlier I will always support the troops, but there is no reason for us to still be over there. That's why so many Americans have taken the stand that they have. I for one will never support the war because of the fact that we shouldn't have been put into this position in the first place. Furthermore I dare anyone to tell me that I am not an American because of the way that I feel about this war. Well I guess I'll stop there for now before I start to mouth off to much.
Andy Moscato a.k.a. :Lt. Colonel Hawk Masters
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DeryniLord

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Post Thu Feb 21, 2008 9:16 am

Re: From a Ranger's Point of View

OK folks, lets tone down the rhetoric. We've all got opinions on this topic I'm sure, but this is a SG fan group forum. Lets make sure that we keep things civil, otherwise, Jordan or I will have to actually "moderate" for the first time... LOL :roll: :shock:

Besides, you guys really don't want me debating politics here, I'd chase everyone away. Whats worse than a lawyer... a Political Science major who loves to debate... :twisted:
Matt Snyder
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Logan

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Post Thu Feb 21, 2008 10:46 am

Re: From a Ranger's Point of View

Lisa Jackson
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Rasputin

Post Thu Feb 21, 2008 2:37 pm

Re: From a Ranger's Point of View

Well, before Matt and Lisa posted I was going to respond in a neutral manner to explain how you can separate the two. I was a political science major too in undergrand, and i'm a layer. 8) However, the above posts depict the very reasons this is probably not the appropriate place for this type of discussion. While some of us may be able to debate the issues, it really doesn't have anything to do with the SG universe, or any of our events. Do we discuss other issues that are not related to SG, sure...but there are some debates that should remain offline (like abortion and other extreemly sensitive issues). If there are individuals who want to continue to debate this issue, I would encourage it. We don't want to say you can't talk about it...just that there is a time and a place for certain limited types of debates. Heck, I would love to continue this debate, but not here. I suggest in person or in private emails.
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Logan

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Post Thu Feb 21, 2008 3:02 pm

Re: From a Ranger's Point of View

I'll debate you, Richard!!! As long as you promise not to hate me too much afterwards! LOL

Seriously, anyone who wants to discuss this further, PMs or emails are the way to go. I don't want to discourage lively discussion on the forums because we do talk about a lot of things and have varying opinions here, but I also don't want to see anyone get upset over it (and knowing me, I probably would! LOL)
Lisa Jackson
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DeryniLord

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Post Thu Feb 21, 2008 3:39 pm

Re: From a Ranger's Point of View

I was NOT suggesting to keep future discussions on this private... only stating that as emotionally charged as this and many other topics can be, that we all need to keep it civil, no flames, no attacks... etc. Nobody had done that, I was just cautioning on it before hand, to help prevent any escalations from happening... then we'd all be at war as well... :twisted: :roll: :lol:

Paul/Andy, many of us here have also been in the service. Most, if not ALL, of our members support the troops... regardless of whether we feel that we should have went to war in the first place or whether we should still be there.
Matt Snyder
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Logan

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Post Thu Feb 21, 2008 10:57 pm

Re: From a Ranger's Point of View

Ok! Well, since we have the go ahead to discuss this, I'll give my opinion.

I support the troops. I don't support the conflict in Iraq. I haven't since Day 1. We went in under false pretenses with faulty intelligence, no coherent plan beyond Shock and Awe, a complete underestimation of the forces and tactics involved, and overconfidence in the simplicity of the mission. Our efforts would have been better directed towards a more extensive campaign in Afghanistan, which I fully support as the source of the terrorism that led to an attack on American soil. I still believe that the current administration was influenced by their frustration at not rooting out Bin Laden and their desire to show the American public that something was being done.

Yes, we got rid of Hussein, which was a blessing for the people of Iraq. But he isn't the only dictator in the world we would better off without. No one even talks about the actual genocide taking place in Africa (Darfur to be exact) at this moment. Hundreds of thousands of people have been tortured and killed under the current regime. It is a prime breeding ground for terrorists as well, but you don't hear much about it.

Our troops shouldn't have been put into this conflict to begin with. I don't blame them. They take orders and do their jobs and lose their lives in a foreign land fighting an unwinnable war. The answer is not to just pull them out. We can't go in as heroes to save the Iraqi people from an evil dictator and leave them in the mess that is there. How many innocent civilians have been killed for no other reason than the misfortune to be born in the wrong place at the wrong time? It would be chaos and civil war and Iraq would become a prime breeding ground for terrorism. We need action and not false promises. The men and women in uniform deserve that from our leaders.

The lady who is protesting the war because she lost her son? It is her right to protest whatever she wants to. She is an American and we have the right to speak out. She is grieving her son and I wouldn't begrudge her for hating the war that took him from her.

I am not whining. Or crying. Or telling anyone they shouldn't feel differently. Just stating my stance on the matter.
Lisa Jackson
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Rhyus

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Post Fri Feb 22, 2008 2:32 am

Re: From a Ranger's Point of View

I'd like to offer my apologies to Andy and everyone else that I might have offended or gotten worked up on this topic. I think that some of my words might have been taken wrong and placed in context wrong by myself. Nobody is making me say this, I just feel that the way I said a few things was said in the wrong way or was not said completely.

Yes, Iraq might have been a dumping ground for us to prove something since Afghanistan was not getting it's intended results. But, Iraq, with Hussain, was also a breeding ground for a huge number of terrorist. Weapons of Mass Destruction? Well, we do know that he had them or had easy access to them from his neighbors. Did we find them? No. But, can we find all the terrorists in that country as well? No. Only Hussain knows if he had any or not, and he isn't talking.

Should we have sent them in in the first place? Yes, because Hussain was a monster and he was breeding monsters. Bush's father should really have gone in at the first Desert Storm and taken him out of power, but, there was just too much other things happening that he had to pull back and not do it, namily politics. To me, I still feel that the troops = the war and the war = the troops. It is the decisions that Congress and the President are making is what we should be hating. Once we started that war, we had to stay until we got the country back on its feet and with everything that is still going on over there, there is no way that they could have stayed on their feet without us still being there. Just like in World War II, when we conquered Germany and Japan, how long did we (allied forces) stay there? Decades. We still have troops stationed in Japan and Germany. Technically, you could say when the wall fell, which would have made it at least 30 years. Did we need to be there that long, no, because it wasn't a hive of terrorist attacks.

Ok. I'm starting to ramble on again and might be stirring up things again. Again, I want to apologize to everybody for things that I might have put wrong in my posts on this topic.
Master Sergeant Ryan Taner
SG Hellfire, Team Member
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SG-Operations: The Home Base of SGC & SG-SOCOM
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Rasputin

Post Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:42 pm

Re: From a Ranger's Point of View

I guess I should not have dismissed the debate so quickly, my bad. As Matt said, we need to just watch our words on sensitive subjects. Lisa, I like the way you stated your position. I don't have the time to more fully set out my opinion at the moment, so I will just respond quickly to my distinction between the troops and the war.

The troops are only following orders, which come from the top of the chain of command...the president and his advisors, who are political appointees by elections and political appointments. I believe that you can separate the two because a soldier does not decide what battles to fight. Once he or she joins, they must follow orders. Not all of those orders are political in nature, but decisions to deploy outside of the boarders of the United States are definitely political (whether it be for aid to Somalia or otherwise). Moreover, decisions to engage in foreign military conflict (otherwise known as war) are constitutionally delegated to the House of Congress. The President does have some executive power privileges on a temporary basis, but they are not indefinite, nor are they limitless. This is one of the biggest reasons a lot of people have been bashing the government and the troops. However, those in the media and the public who bash the troops are the ones who should be criticized because their anger is misdirected when they criticize the troops directly.
Last edited by Rasputin on Fri Feb 22, 2008 4:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Logan

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Post Fri Feb 22, 2008 1:20 pm

Re: From a Ranger's Point of View

Thanks for the apology to everyone Rhyus. This is emotional subject matter and it is easy to get heated up over it. As long as we treat each other with respect and debate the issues, it's all good.

Richard brings up a good point. I personally haven't seen anyone attack the troops themselves directly. I have heard extremely vocal opponents speak out on the war and the President, but I haven't heard anyone specifically target the troops as 'bad guys.' As close as I've seen is criticism of the generals' plans and even then the criticism falls on The Pentagon. Your average soldier out there doing the hard stuff? Who is bashing them?

You know, the great thing about our country is that when a current Administration makes decisions that the majority of Americans find fault with, we have the opportunity to elect a new leader. One of my biggest pet peeves is The Complainer Who Does Nothing About It. Apathy is a problem in America. If it doesn't directly affect us, we act like it doesn't exist and that's a shame.
Lisa Jackson
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DeryniLord

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Post Fri Feb 22, 2008 4:36 pm

Re: From a Ranger's Point of View

Matt Snyder
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Logan

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Post Sat Feb 23, 2008 11:18 am

Re: From a Ranger's Point of View

I don't see how anyone can seriously think isolationism is an answer to our problems. It is impossible. Maybe a hundred years ago, but not now. We are connected to the world in ways that our forefathers could not have envisoned, via trade, communications, travel, etc. And there's a big difference between taking care of the problems at home (a slumping economy, homelessness, lack of affordable medical care, high unemployment rates, etc.) and cutting ourselves off from the global theater. In this day and age, it can't be done.

The situation in Iraq is our mess to clean up. It doesn't help our image much that early on we backed Hussein when he was going against Iran. The US needs to be more careful of choosing sides in such volatile areas. That seems to be happening now with the situation in Darfur. There's a lot of lip service going on, but not much by way of tangible efforts to wipe out the genocide machine.

But there seems to be a mentality of "What's in it for us?" I wonder if things would be different if Darfur and the surrounding area was rich in oil? I hear a lot of people defending the decision to go into Iraq with the 'getting the madman out of power' speech. It is a fine speech, but can be said about so many other places in the world that aren't logistically or economically important to the US. I just don't appreciate having the hero complex used as a reason when there are so many other ones, maybe not as pretty to common folk, but that don't seem as hollow.

And Matt, I think we're seeing that resurgence of American interest...maybe not on a grand scale, but if you pay attention to the election process going on right now you will see that Americans are showing up to the polls for primaries and caucuses in record numbers, far exceeding any elections in my memory. THAT is proof to me that there may be hope for the average American to wake up and realize that the world won't just go on without them and they have nothing to do with world events.
Lisa Jackson
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My Moderating Color
the only easy day was yesterday...

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